Saturday, March 11, 2006

More Bible verses against the use of P&W

"When the waters saw you, O God,
when the waters saw you, they were afraid;
indeed, the deep trembled.
The clouds poured out water;
the skies gave forth thunder;
your arrows flashed on every side.
The crash of your thunder was in the whirlwind;
your lightnings lighted up the world;
the earth trembled and shook.
Your way was through the sea,
your path through the great waters;
yet your footprints were unseen.
You led your people like a flock
by the hand of Moses and Aaron." - Psalm 77:16-20 (ESV)

11 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do you care to elaborate on why or how these verses support your anti-p&w position? I would think these verses do not especially support much of anything except the power of God.

I think these verses may actually support CCM instrumentation. After the Israelites passed through the Red Sea, Miriam directed them in their praise of God. The only instrument was a tamborine.

3/13/2006 02:44:00 AM  
Blogger Ryan Martin said...

Q: Do you care to elaborate on why or how these verses support your anti-p&w position?

Not particularly. And I prefer to call my position Pro-reverence, not anti-P&W.

3/13/2006 06:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well you're the one that picked the title for your entry, not me. It could have been "More Bible verses supporting the use of reverent worship music".

If you're going to reduce your position to "pro-reverence", can you explain what your basis is for deciding musical reverence?

Is your music anything like the music used to sing the Psalms you quoted?

3/13/2006 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger Ryan Martin said...

Q: can you explain what your basis is for deciding musical reverence?

Aren't these verses enough?

Q: Is your music anything like the music used to sing the Psalms you quoted?

Yep.

Hast thou a name, or even a clever pseudonym, sir?

3/13/2006 09:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Josh Larsen said...

I am assuming by your answers, Ryan, that you do not want this to become yet another drawn out music debate, but at least a few words of explanation would be helpful. The verses themselves are not enough for me to understsand your point, because I know some P&W songs which are basically these verses put to music. I'm sure I'm just revealing my musical ignorance here, but I'm just responding to your question: "Aren't these verses enough?"

3/13/2006 06:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Billy Bob said...

OK, so clever pseudonym it is.

Reverence is an attitude. The way we express this attitude shifts over time. It used to be irreverent to call everyone by their first name. Now it is the standard business practice in the US, and no one thinks anything of it. If you ask someone who is worshipping God with Praise & Worship music, they will not disagree with your desire to treat God respectfully. They will also not understand how their music is being disrespectful.

Why should our music express reverence in only the way that you choose. Why are other people's expressions invalid?

And I seriously doubt that your church music is anything close to the ancient Hebrew music styles that David and other psalmists used to worship God.

3/14/2006 12:28:00 AM  
Blogger Ryan Martin said...

Billy Bob, I pity you. You should come to the glorious light of metaphysical realism and quit playing in the mud pies of nominalism.

3/14/2006 07:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Billy Bob said...

I am not arguing that there is no objective way to gauge reverence. I am arguing that your way is not objective.

3/14/2006 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger Ryan Martin said...

Personally, I am not striving after knowing anything objectively. My knowledge is wholly subjective, and I revel therein. My knowledge has been totally transformed by what I love.

3/14/2006 09:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Billy Bob said...

Why is your subjective knowledge better than anyone else's? Others who claim to know the mind of Christ disagree with your conclusions about reverent music. How much of your conclusion is really just your own preferences, and not God's?

3/15/2006 01:03:00 AM  
Blogger Ryan Martin said...

Q: Why is your subjective knowledge better than anyone else's?

For various reasons.

Q: How much of your conclusion is really just your own preferences, and not God's?

Less than most.

3/15/2006 07:23:00 AM  

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Immoderate: More Bible verses against the use of P&W

Saturday, March 11, 2006

More Bible verses against the use of P&W

"When the waters saw you, O God,
when the waters saw you, they were afraid;
indeed, the deep trembled.
The clouds poured out water;
the skies gave forth thunder;
your arrows flashed on every side.
The crash of your thunder was in the whirlwind;
your lightnings lighted up the world;
the earth trembled and shook.
Your way was through the sea,
your path through the great waters;
yet your footprints were unseen.
You led your people like a flock
by the hand of Moses and Aaron." - Psalm 77:16-20 (ESV)

11 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do you care to elaborate on why or how these verses support your anti-p&w position? I would think these verses do not especially support much of anything except the power of God.

I think these verses may actually support CCM instrumentation. After the Israelites passed through the Red Sea, Miriam directed them in their praise of God. The only instrument was a tamborine.

3/13/2006 02:44:00 AM  
Blogger Ryan Martin said...

Q: Do you care to elaborate on why or how these verses support your anti-p&w position?

Not particularly. And I prefer to call my position Pro-reverence, not anti-P&W.

3/13/2006 06:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well you're the one that picked the title for your entry, not me. It could have been "More Bible verses supporting the use of reverent worship music".

If you're going to reduce your position to "pro-reverence", can you explain what your basis is for deciding musical reverence?

Is your music anything like the music used to sing the Psalms you quoted?

3/13/2006 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger Ryan Martin said...

Q: can you explain what your basis is for deciding musical reverence?

Aren't these verses enough?

Q: Is your music anything like the music used to sing the Psalms you quoted?

Yep.

Hast thou a name, or even a clever pseudonym, sir?

3/13/2006 09:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Josh Larsen said...

I am assuming by your answers, Ryan, that you do not want this to become yet another drawn out music debate, but at least a few words of explanation would be helpful. The verses themselves are not enough for me to understsand your point, because I know some P&W songs which are basically these verses put to music. I'm sure I'm just revealing my musical ignorance here, but I'm just responding to your question: "Aren't these verses enough?"

3/13/2006 06:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Billy Bob said...

OK, so clever pseudonym it is.

Reverence is an attitude. The way we express this attitude shifts over time. It used to be irreverent to call everyone by their first name. Now it is the standard business practice in the US, and no one thinks anything of it. If you ask someone who is worshipping God with Praise & Worship music, they will not disagree with your desire to treat God respectfully. They will also not understand how their music is being disrespectful.

Why should our music express reverence in only the way that you choose. Why are other people's expressions invalid?

And I seriously doubt that your church music is anything close to the ancient Hebrew music styles that David and other psalmists used to worship God.

3/14/2006 12:28:00 AM  
Blogger Ryan Martin said...

Billy Bob, I pity you. You should come to the glorious light of metaphysical realism and quit playing in the mud pies of nominalism.

3/14/2006 07:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Billy Bob said...

I am not arguing that there is no objective way to gauge reverence. I am arguing that your way is not objective.

3/14/2006 09:19:00 AM  
Blogger Ryan Martin said...

Personally, I am not striving after knowing anything objectively. My knowledge is wholly subjective, and I revel therein. My knowledge has been totally transformed by what I love.

3/14/2006 09:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Billy Bob said...

Why is your subjective knowledge better than anyone else's? Others who claim to know the mind of Christ disagree with your conclusions about reverent music. How much of your conclusion is really just your own preferences, and not God's?

3/15/2006 01:03:00 AM  
Blogger Ryan Martin said...

Q: Why is your subjective knowledge better than anyone else's?

For various reasons.

Q: How much of your conclusion is really just your own preferences, and not God's?

Less than most.

3/15/2006 07:23:00 AM  

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